1: Welcome to Forging Purpose

David Summerhays: Hi everyone, my name is David Summerhays. This is a podcast about the quest for a meaningful life and the difficulties that many people have in finding it. These first few episodes are gonna feature stories, anecdotes, and dialogues about people’s quest for that meaningful, fulfilled life. My first interview is with my friend David, starting right now. Welcome, David, to this podcast. How are you doing? David the plumber: I’m good, thank you. David Summerhays: Great. Thanks so much for agreeing to do this. This podcast is about, like I mentioned to you, meaning, how people are finding meaning, the quest for meaning, and sometimes it’s a struggle. Some people it’s easier. I’m not saying it’s hard for everybody, but you know, it’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work. Some people it’s easier. I’m not saying it’s hard for everybody, but yeah, I wanted to start my podcast by just interviewing a few folks to just talk about their quest for meaning and what that’s looked like for them. And just a few words about what I mean by meaning, just so we can all be on the same page. Like first of all, I guess you could say like that kind of sense of purpose or like a kind of satisfaction with one’s life, I guess you could say. Like you could reach the end of your days and say, oh yeah, like I had a good life and I did things that were worthwhile during the days that I have. There’s a lot I could say about what meaning is and all that. We’ll get into it probably later in the podcast, but I think that’s the main things I wanted to say about it. So I guess my first question, I was wondering when you were a kid, did you have a vision for what your meaningful life would look like? You know, that could be career, that could be a lot of things. David the plumber: I mean, the only times I can really remember like, well, when I was a kid, maybe like early adolescence, I remember thinking that oddly, I might want to become a priest. Okay. And then… David Summerhays: I thought you were going to say astronaut. David the plumber: I was convinced. And then later on, I thought I wanted to become an astronaut. No, but later on in say like when I got in high school or whatever, later years in high school, I didn’t really have an idea of what I wanted to do. Honestly, the only thing that I really can remember in my like my teens, it was just wanting to make money, make lots of money. David Summerhays: Ah, cash in. David the plumber: Cash in. So, yeah, neither one of those things happened. But, you know, I had a very good, very lovely childhood, you know, full of like being in nature, up at the cottage surrounded by family. I come from a big, a big family. And, you know, religion was really a big part of my upbringing, even though, you know, but I don’t know, I just, when I got older into my later teens, I kind of just like, what do I need that? What do I need to do that for? No, I don’t need to do that. I can just be connected to myself and, you know, the higher power on my own. Yeah, so that’s a long-winded answer to the question. But I will say that like, as a result of my grandparents, basically, and being part of this family, like family is the most important thing to me. And it has a very direct impact on my, it’s the most important thing in my life. And it’s the thing that really kind of, one of the things that gets me meaning in life. So, yeah, that was a long question. But for a long answer. But yeah, what do you want to be when you were younger? David Summerhays: It’s funny, I had no idea. And I’m really asking from like a very broad perspective. I think a lot of, as, you know, men, also like boys and raised to be men and stuff, I feel like work is a really big part of it. And it’s just a bigger place. Like, what do you want to be when you grow up? What do you want to do? And, but even that I had no idea. But I remember being doubly sort of astonished by, you know, folks, and especially women that would say, you know, I want to have a family, I want to have kids. And I feel like, wow, you know, but even I was just talking to a neighbor of mine who’s maybe, let’s say 20 and a boy or young man. And he was saying, yeah, you know, when, when I have kids, I’m going to raise them like this. And I just remember thinking when, oh my goodness, I was never, you know, 100% clear. Like this is, this is happening. You know, I didn’t, boy, I can’t think of, I mean, I’m sure when I was young, I had ideas of things I wanted to be like, and I, you know, yeah, okay. I could be a doctor. That’d be pretty cool or whatever. And then people would say, oh, you know, there’s barriers. Like, it’s not easy and oh, okay. Or I wanted to do sports as well as really into sports. So like I look at athletes and I’d like, I like have some of the makeup to be an athlete. Like I really enjoy, enjoy the training and the, the pressure situations and the psychology of it and stuff like that. But I mean, I’m way too small to play anything with baseball, I don’t think, or soccer. And I’m not very good at either. So yeah, that was, that was dead pretty quick. But yeah, I remember just being amazed by people who had like any clue or a friend of mine who was just, I met her at, we were both maybe 18, 19. And she’s like, yeah, I’m going to be a doctor. And that’s what she is right now. You know, she’s already in med school and yeah, like knew it and just did it. Whereas I’ve gone through, I think every single day. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that’s one of the things that’s really important to me is being permutation of career possibility that’s possible. And I, you know, I have to, family is really important to me too, but moved far away from the family and it’s a tough thing. So, I mean, I’m sure you’re happy to be back and closer to those folks. If that’s the number one thing, I mean, what brought you to Montreal if your family’s in Ottawa? David the plumber: Well, I think that like, when you’re talking about your dad, and I think just that like, I had different priorities back then, you know? Okay. I didn’t, maybe I wanted to get away from my family a little bit at that point. And then just over the years, as you get older, things become more important, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And then my sister had, you know, has a couple of kids too, and I have a great relationship with them and my mom’s getting older. So it’s just like, yeah, no, like, I want to be closer to family. But yeah, I, when you’re talking about like, you know, not knowing, not really having like a clear idea of like, what you wanted to do versus other people, like your friend that said she was going to be a doctor when she was 19, you know? I think, yeah, it’s like, it’s almost like some people have that clarity like early on, and others, it comes later, you know? Like for me, like as being a plumber, like I went to school at 45, 46, you know? And now I found a trade that, you know, I really like, you know? So that’s funny, you know, that things can take, that things can take that long, you know, to work through, you know? Or not that long, you know? Like as your 19-year-old friend, you know? Totally. So you think you’ve found like your career for the rest of your life? I mean, that’s impossible to say, but like, you know, but like I’m treating it like the career for the rest of my life, you know? That’s the way I’m approaching it. I’m not, again, that’s just a personal thing, but I’m inspired to do it in plumbing, whereas maybe I wasn’t as inspired to do it in any other field of work I’ve ever been in, you know? Wow. So are there, what’s inspiring? Do you meet like older plumbers and you’re like, I want to be like them? It’s just kind of that learning journey, I guess. I mean, every once in a while you come across a plumber that like, like I’m always learning, right? And if you’re smart in the trades, and I guess if you’re, you know, I guess this is universal as well, you’re always going to look for the people that are doing the work well or have little tricks and stuff. So there’s always something to learn from everybody, but every once in a while you come across a guy or a person that is really good at what they do. And for me personally, I always gravitate towards those people. Like, I want to soak up as much information from them as I can. It doesn’t happen very often though, but every once in a while like you come across those people. At school, I met a couple of guys at school, teachers that were just, and I still talk to them today. I just have an hour and a half, two hour conversation with them on the phone. If I have any questions plumbing related, I just get them to kind of teach me or help me understand. So I guess that’s another part of plumbing that I find really satisfying in this is that it feeds my curiosity to learn. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, it sounds like that’s a big piece is that like, well, the challenge of it and yeah, growing, learning in something. How much is, would you say a sense of service is a piece of it? Like, do you feel like you’re, because it sounds like you work on more construction buildings. So it sounds like it’s rare that you’re meeting the people whose lives you’re sort of impacting. So how much do you have a sense of, okay, I’m doing good for others? Well, yeah, when you’re going to challenge. Yeah, when you’re working in like commercial settings, like your sense, the sense of service comes from trying to impart what you know to those that don’t license plumber. Right. So it’s part of my job is to train the guys, the apprentices. Okay. So that’s, that’s fun. That’s a lot of fun. You know, that’s a lot of that’s very, that’s something that I like. I do and I don’t like to do actually. I’d like to be able to teach a guy why this is the way it is and this is how you do it. And, you know, this is the process to do it from A to Z to do it correctly. I like that part. But also I don’t, it’s frustrating as well because anyway, I’m not going to get into that. I mean, I assume I can fill in a blank by saying, you know, with my teaching career. Oh, yeah, you know, teaching 17, 18 year olds. It’s like some of it gets through others of it doesn’t. And it’s the other frustrating moments where you’re like, okay, I tried to help you and it didn’t work. And she didn’t listen. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m not trying to blame them. I mean, it’s me, too. You know, it’s and it’s that teaching relationship. It’s it’s both of us and it didn’t work. And when it works, when it’s good, it’s it’s so great. And it motivates me a lot to keep keep working to get better for sure. And why plumbing like what is because there’s like you mentioned the learning like learning could be anything. It could be a language. It could be, you know, there’s so many things to learn an instrument, a sport. So what is it about plumbing in particular that it’s really meaningful for you to learn it and be on that journey and in those relationships of both learning and teaching? For lack of a better explanation, it’s just that I really like it. And why do I really like it? I don’t have a really concrete answer for that. I think that I always looking back on my life now, now that I’m, you know, 52, looking back on my life, I think that I always I always respected guys that worked with their hands. Even if I didn’t really understand that I respected them. And I think that I also in respecting them either consciously or unconsciously, I think that there is a big part of me that also wanted to do that. But I never, you know, I went to school, you know, I went to university. And it never really occurred to me, but it was always kind of in the back of my mind, not so conscious that that was that was something that that I really that really held a lot of emotional value somehow. And once I started doing it, I realized that, oh, yeah, yeah, that that is it. You know, that feels good. Well, how did that start? Well, just basically just going going to school, going to get like how did I choose plumbing? Is that the question? But I mean, well, it just sounds like you were on like a kind of white collar path, you know. Oh, yeah. But how did you get this idea like, wait, no, working with my hands or whatever? Oh, yeah, I got I got diagnosed with ADHD. And and also the thing that got me to go to the neurologist was that I came to the realization that that I wasn’t really making any career progress. I’d worked in like customer service for like 15 years, basically, and hadn’t really climbed any corporate ladder at all. And so then, yeah, so I got diagnosed with the processing delay and then it kind of kind of put everything in perspective. You know, my whole life, basically, in perspective, that I realized that that the whole computer, the whole sitting at a desk kind of dynamic was just not where I’m going to excel as a person and in a career. And and so that’s when I started looking at things that were more in line with with with dealing with my processing processing delay. And the number one thing was the trades. And then as I started to look into it and started to kind of just research it, I began to realize that, wow, this is this is something that really I find really interesting. So wow, I think it’s really interesting the way like one door closing can open another. Like, and I feel like, and I’m not saying this is anything like very parallel. Like, I’m not saying it’s that similar, but I just mean, I’m thinking of folks that like, let’s say they’re in a wheelchair or something, but they have this thing like I want to play a sport or, you know, I want to do things that like normally the door is closed. And it but it creates like a sense of challenge at the same time, like, like, in their case, like, I want to be normal. I don’t think that’s like what you’re saying at all. But in a way, like, do things that these like, and it’s not want to be normal. I shouldn’t put it that way. But you know what I mean? Like, do this thing that I’m not really supposed to be able to do that I can only do with tremendous effort and will. But I just mean, like, the way having a limitation becomes this like central focus of, of how they find meaning in your case, it sounds a little different. It’s like, okay, this door closes, and then you’re sort of looking, okay, well, where’s the door open for me? And it’s felt like this frustration and blood. Like, if you had gotten like, let’s say a supervisory position or, you know, had moved up the ranks, maybe you would never be plumbing and all that. Anyway, I think it’s really interesting. Yeah, I think like so much of my life has been just like, it’s pivoting. You know, it’s like the it’s like one one door opens, you know, one door closes, like you said. Well, okay, so that door is closed. So well, you know, my life still has to continue. I still have to like, you know, pay the bills and all that stuff. So so okay. So then what what can I do now? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I’ve had a lot of my my life has been full of those those pivots. You know, I haven’t really taken a very linear linear path. But but yeah, that’s okay. You know, has some advantages. But if I had taken a linear path, I wouldn’t be doing a podcast. I’ll tell you that much. Yeah. And I probably wouldn’t be plumbing either. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But my friend is still a doctor. So yeah, it’s crazy. All right. David Summerhays: And last piece that I had in mind for talking about was like near end of life. Yeah, imagine, I don’t know, like the trades, for instance, like your body gets older, you get more tired. Like at some point, it’s like, okay, I’ve done this. But, boy, I need to start like either teaching or, you know, we need to move on. And that’s a really tough thing about it. Yeah, he’s kind of retiring more early. Do you have a sense of what retirement looks like? What’s meaningful for those later times? Or even like, you know, some folks, they get like stuff like chronic pain. Like, it’s like, is what at what point is life like worth living through all that sickness and stuff like that? David the plumber: My body has been extremely generous with me. I don’t know why. I’m blessed with that. You know, I’m 52. I have, you know, I’ve worked along. I’ll work alongside guys that are like 20, 25, 30, you know. Yeah, I mean, how longer can how much longer can I do this for? I don’t know that answer at all. I’m just honestly, Dave, some some things are just it’s just too much to think about. You know, like, you know, there’s, you know, I just moved from Montreal to Ottawa. I’m looking for work. I don’t have work yet. You know, you know, I last week I did my heating exam with the CCQ, which was very difficult. So I’m not sure if I passed that. So I might have to retake that. There’s only so many challenges that I can work at work with at the same time. I am very careful with my body when I’m on the job site. Extremely careful. I go see physiotherapists, you know, when I have issues and I’ve been able to fix them. Can I continue doing this for another like like 10, 15 years? Like, no, not in the commercial setting. Yeah, definitely. But in a service setting. And actually, I wanted to get back to that. That’s another part of the industry of plumbing that I really like is is the service aspect of it and being able to deal with with people on a daily basis. I really like being able to share my my knowledge and expertise with them in in a way in the sense that I can fix their issues and make them feel happy about it and also get paid. It’s very it’s very satisfying. But but yeah, I can’t I’m not at the stage yet where I can really think about too much. I’m thinking pretty I’m thinking pretty short to medium term right now, to be honest with you. Yeah, I don’t. I don’t have much room really to to. I don’t really have much room to really think much further past that at this point. So, but yeah, I mean, my secret whenever I confront this particular question in my life, I always fall back to, well, I’ll just marry a rich woman. David Summerhays: Problem solved. David the plumber: Yeah, so yeah, I have no plan. David Summerhays: That’s your retirement plan is marry a rich lady. You know, it’s funny with me when it comes to the meaning quest. The what has never been very clear. The thing that has been clear is the where, which is where I am. So it’s hard to be away from family. I mean, I, I like my family quite a bit. It’s super meaningful for me, but it’s even more meaningful to be sort of where I’m called to be for sure. Which is which is here in Montreal for whatever reason, strange as it is, I don’t really understand. And then I’m just trying to do my best within that context. So yeah, it’s a weird one. It’s I don’t know many people that have the where figured out, but not a whole lot of family kind of ties and feelings. And so it’s just like, OK, well, I’m here in this sort of strange land in a way. It’s not where I grew up, but I’m here. And so I have to sort of make make family while I’m here. It definitely changes it. So yeah, family is important to me. But at the same time, family is also who I choose it to be in a lot of ways. I don’t just choose it. I mean, it chooses me, but it’s different. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you when you say like it’s a it’s a not so much the what, but the where is that what you said? Yeah, that’s what you said. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s exactly what I what how I feel. I mean, honestly, like. I mean, as much as I like plumbing, you know, it’s just like it’s just it’s just it’s a way to pay the bills, basically, you know. And it happens to be a way that I enjoy to pay the bills. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But the thing that’s really important to me right now is really just being the where. Right. The family aspect. So anyway, I don’t know where all that’s going to take me. Sounds more like who than where. Oh, yes, exactly. Well, whereas in where the who is. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s it’s funny. I feel like a lot of folks on their meeting journey. It’s like if you have all those questions of who, what, when, where and especially why a lot of us will have the yeah. That’s interesting that we have different ones of those answered more definitively than others. As for the why, obviously, that’s that’s the big question, isn’t it? Anyway. All right. That probably changes, too. Right. Over time, you know, I can’t write can change at least, you know. Yeah, I think so. I mean, you mentioned on your journey was like, listen, I need to get away from certain who’s in order to sort of gain that clarity and just make sure that I’m doing things for my own reasons and, you know, like not be influenced by those who’s in terms of what you’re doing and where you are and why you’re doing it and stuff like that. But then, as you say, you get older and it’s like, oh, OK, I’ve kind of I’ve become clear about who I am. So now I can be back. And I mean, yeah, that’s all part of the journey. To be honest, I think the whole reason for me for leaving was not like. Sounds kind of odd, but like. It was like a little bit of a rebellion kind of thing, you know, I want to do things my own way kind of thing, you know, not. But I’ve learned over time that, like, you know. It’s it’s it’s really important to listen to those who love you. Yeah, to those that really love you. And I think that that the earlier part of my life where I moved to Montreal was a way to kind of like distance my my life, my the optics of my life from my family so that I could do basically what I wanted. And. But I think over time, I realized that, like. No, no, no, those those people are are guiding lights. And, yeah, I would do well to. You know, they’re guiding lights because they love me. So, you know, why would I why would I want to distance myself from that? And then it was through that kind of I’ve always been close with my family, but. I think I was. Really close with them extremely, extremely close with them. It might say, like, zero to twenty, and then I got into this whole kind of other lifestyle. And I was still very close with them, but I was following my own. My own star, so to speak, and then went and then as as I got into my forties, I started to realize later into my forties, I started to realize that. Especially when I started doing therapy, I started realizing that. Oh, wow. What my therapist says is the same thing that my mom says or my sister says. And then I started to put the dots kind of connect the dots together a little bit and realized that, oh, no, no, these people actually are are sources of wisdom. Sounds stupid to say, but but that that I would ignore that for so long and not respect it and just ignore it for so long. And then finally, like, you know, the approaching the half, half point half point of my life, understand that. No, those people, those people, they’re, they’re, they’re speaking. They’re speaking in your best interest. And, and so, you know, I’ve come to value them even more. So, which is another reason why I decided to want to move back. Why, why wouldn’t I want to surround myself with that love on a daily basis that I can touch with my hands? I’m lucky that I have that opportunity. So I decided I so I decided that I should I want to take it. Okay, I’m starting to run out of time. Questions to ask you. This has been really fun. Yeah, it really has actually. Yeah. Yeah. Super enjoyable. So, and I learned a lot about, yeah, you and your background stuff we never quite got to talking about. So then super fun. Yeah. Any famous last words that you’d like to get in here? Oh, my God. Not really. No, just thanks. Thank you. This was really fun. I really enjoyed. I really enjoyed talking to you today. So that was my conversation with David. What a lovely conversation. I’m so glad he agreed to be on this show. And yeah, I hope you, you all enjoyed it. As I mentioned at the end, I’m struck by a few things from our conversation that I thought I’d share with you. First is the provisional decisions about meaning. You know, how often David was saying, I’m a plumber for now. I live in Ottawa for now. You know, many of those decisions were temporary. And I think that’s a good thing. So it’s just we’re constantly figuring out what meaning is and how to live it. The second is the importance of, you know, those relationships that David had with mentors and mentees. And also the lifelong learning and kind of constant fascination and just a desire to learn. And also the lifelong learning and kind of constant fascination and just a desire to learn to be manual. And that was meaningful to him to join kind of a, I don’t know, a group of people that are good with their hands and do and build things and know things. Finally, I never thought of meaning as a series of questions. I’d always thought of it as what and maybe why. But I never thought of it as when or where or how, you know, those all being part of the meaning journey. My next interview will be with a specialist in learning disabilities. And we’re going to talk about how barriers to learning or any kind of barrier really can prevent meaningful living, you know, prevent people from doing things that they love. But at the same time, those barriers and the quest to overcome those barriers can be a deep source of meaning in people’s lives. So we’re going to talk more about that should be a great episode. So don’t go anywhere. I’m just so glad that you’re joining me in supporting not just this podcast, but this movement of talking about meaning in life as an important thing to talk about and not just an important thing to talk about, but a really important thing to talk about today in today’s society as a major struggle that many people are having. So to support this work, first of all, please leave a comment saying you appreciate it. Like the podcast and subscribe and tell a friend. This is all a volunteer effort. It’s a volunteer effort. You can join by doing those things. You can find more episodes of this podcast at my website, summerhaze.me. That’s s-u-m-m-e-r-h-a-y-s dot m-e or find me at summerhaze on blue sky. Thanks. Have a great day.